Welcome to The Good Pod.

Very special episode of
The Good Pod, if you will.

Uh, we figured with, you know The
big, the big moments we've just gone

through, the loss of Will Gardner.

We bring you some bonus content to
try and help you, you know, sort

through your feelings, and we're
trying to sort through our feelings.

So we decided to make this special
goodbye to Will episode, where we

have a few different things for
you here in the pipeline that we're

gonna, we're gonna do, we're gonna
talk about, we're gonna go through.

Um, Marissa- Yeah … Marissa's,
Marissa's here, everybody.

I'm not just- Yay … not just me.

Marissa, you good?

I'm good, Jason.

You good?

I'm good.

I'm good.

Good.

Good.

Uh, you know, we're all still, we're
also getting through this thing.

Uh, we're still trying to process
our feelings and emotions.

Uh, so we decided to do this to just
kinda, kinda group therapy, if you will.

Yeah, I mean, I think we've had
conversations around, like, finding

it, it out, it happened, and then
being with our characters through the

aftermath of what had all happened,
and how they were dealing with grief.

And so now it's our time.

Now it's our time to kind of sit with
our feelings and kind of see what's

go- at least, I mean, I don't know
about you, Jason, but not seeing Josh

Charles on the TV for a while is gonna
be personally really hard for me to do.

So I just need a moment.

I need a moment to, like,
collect so that I can move on.

I'm not like David Lee.

I can't, I can't just keep going.

I have to just pause and be
with it, and then I can move on.

So consider this our, our, um, as Jason
has on his, on his message board in the

back, our in Will memoriam section of
our podcast to, to kind of just ground

us in this, so that we can go forward
with the rest of the series without

Josh Charles and without Will Gardner,
not like we're expecting it to be

anything different or weird or whatever.

We just need this time.

Yeah.

Uh, so we're gonna, we're gonna
do a couple different things.

We are first going to, Marissa's going
to walk us through a letter that was

posted by the Kings at the time, uh,
right after Will's death episode.

We, we did get a, uh, we kinda got a,
you know, a, a message from, I think

it was Becks, who we're gonna talk
about o- a little bit, that learns of

Will's passing from a Facebook post
of the Kings that were saying- Oh

Will dies.

It was like, okay, kinda, like, is it,
kinda spoiled this, but okay, cool.

But this was a, a letter that
the Kings posted to The Good

Wife fans right after episode 15.

Yeah, so, uh, this is,
like, old school, right?

Like w- like, when this came out,
we're kind of in the middle of, like,

the s- streaming hasn't happened, but
we're very much in a social media era.

So the Kings, like, put this in the
newspaper and also wrote this and put it

on Facebook, as Jason has talked about.

Um, so I'm just gonna read the letter,
and we can kinda, like, talk through it.

"Dear loyal Good Wife fans, we, like
you, mourn the loss of Will Gardner.

And while Will is gone, our beloved
Josh Charles is very much alive, and

remains an integral part of our family."

I think they're, they're like, "Hey,
we know Will's gone, but Josh is still

alive and he's not going too far, so
basically don't get mad at us." Well,

the fu- the funny thing is like, a-
and you know, uh, Josh Charles will

return to The Good Wife fold in a way.

He, he directs some other-
Yeah … episodes in the f-

in the future of the series.

Um, so yeah, I mean, it's not as if,
it's not as if there was some like

really- Like a beef … contentious…
Yeah, it was nothing contentious-

Yeah, like- … about this … like
it's not like two of our stars cannot

be in the same room at the same time.

This, like Josh Charles is not
exited, like e- doesn't have

an exodus from this production.

Like he's still, he's
still very much around.

Yeah, I think, I, I think what we, what
we've heard about Josh Charles' departure

is that, you know, his contract was up,
and he, I think he's even said in some

press that like this is a lot for him.

Like doing 22 episodes of a courtroom
drama is just kind of draining.

He was, I think he was newly
a father at this point.

He had just gotten, he had just got
married two, not too long before

this, and wanted to spend more
time with, with his real family.

Yeah.

And so he decided that at the
end of his contract he was

gonna, he was gonna say deuces.

And what I've also seen and read is
that Julia- Julianna Margulies is

the one that kind of convinced him
to like stick around a little bit.

Let's like, let's let your story, let's,
let's give you a s- a send-off like no

other send-off, and that, you know, this
relationship between Julianna and Josh was

I gu- I guess good enough for him to be
like, "All right, yeah, I'll stick around

and really make this, ma- make me leaving
a big event or whatever." To continue on

the letter, "The Good Wife at its heart
is the education of Alicia Florrick.

To us, there will always be tragedy
at the center of Will and Alicia's

relationship, the tragedy of bad timing.

And when faced with the gut punch
of Josh's decision, made over a year

ago, to move on to other creative
endeavors, we had a choice to make.

We could send him off to Seattle,"
which is a nod to ER because that is

what happened with Doug Ross in ER.

Spoilers for Doug … for ER, but it's
been a long time, and Julianna Margulies'

character was involved with Doug Ross.

Oh, yeah.

That's interesting.

So little shout out to ER.

Uh, we could send him off to Seattle,
but we, we, he, he could c- ugh.

We could send him off to Seattle,
he could be disbarred or get

married or go off to Borneo.

Ugh.

Ugh.

What, what's that a reference to?

Ugh.

I mean, not Survivor.

Well, I'm pr- pretty sure Survivor
was pretty big at this time.

Like, it's 2013.

Like, we're in- Well, Survivor
was only in Borneo for its, like,

first season … for the first one.

Yeah, I guess.

I don't know.

Do good works.

I don't know.

I don't know what that's about.

But there was something about the
passion that Will and Alicia shared

that made the distance a meager hurdle.

The brutal honesty, the reality
of, and the reality of death speaks

to the truth and tragedy of bad
timing for these two characters.

Will's death propels Alicia
into her newest incarnation.

Like, like she's an evolving Pokemon.

Yeah.

Like, this is what I feel.

Like, this, this is what they're,
what they're setting up here.

This really, this really
increases her feelings HP.

Yeah.

It really gets her to
her next stage evolution.

Yes.

Death also created a new
dramatic hub for the show.

We're always looking for
these turning points.

Some, some event way through the
season that will spin everyone's

lives in new directions.

These turning points keep the show
from slipping into numbness for, into a

numbing sameness, and keep the characters
fresh because you s- because you see how

they react to a completely new status,
to co- a completely new status quo.

Will's death in many ways becomes a
hub for the whole series, violently

spinning everyone in new directions.

So a little foreshadowing there.

Uh, finally, we chose the tragic route
for Will's send-off for personal reasons.

We've all experienced the sudden
death of a loved one in our lives.

It's terrifying how perfectly
normal a sunny day can be and then

suddenly explode with tragedy.

Okay, I do wanna place this.

This might be a stretch, but this,
this episode ran in what, 2013?

'13, '14, something like that Yeah,
no, that's too much of a stretch.

Anyway, uh, all I could think of for
some reason is like 9/11, but I'm

like, "That was a long time ago." Yeah.

Because they said, uh, it might have been
something that happened, like, or Sandy

Hook or something that happened around
that time that really- I mean, listen-

made her list for
them … there's always something.

It- There's always
something … everything every day.

Yeah.

Yeah, unfortunately.

Television, in our opinion, doesn't deal
with enough the irredeemability of death.

The last time y- with, your
last time with a loved one will

always remain your last time.

The Good Wife is a show about human
behavior and emotion and death.

As a sad, a- as a sad and unfair
as it can be, it is part of the

human experience that we all share.

Thanks for listening and watching and
caring and inspiring us to rise to the

level of your passion and intelligence.

There are seven wonderful episodes
to follow this season, and Josh

will be directing one of them.

We think you will enjoy them.

It's not all tears.

There's comedy, too.

Michael J. Fox is back for four
episodes, Dylan Baker, Dallas

Roberts, Stalker Channing, as
well as amazing new guest actors.

And of course, Juliana does some
of the best work of her life.

I have a lot of, uh, that could
be read as true or as in we have

to say this otherwise she'll fire
us, uh, or she'll leave the show.

Um, Archie, Christine, Alan,
Chris, and Matt as well.

Life does go on.

Interestingly enough, right after
that- Yep … sentence about Juliana

does the best work of her life, the
very first word of the next sentence,

Archie - Not Christine Baranski.

No.

Archie's first.

Archie.

Take that Juliana.

Archie, Christine, Alan,
Chris, and Matt as well.

I'm trying to think, like Archie,
Kalinda, Christine, Diane, Alan-

Alan … uh, Eli- Yep … Chris, Peter-
Don … Matt- Yep … and Matt is Cary.

Yep.

Um, yeah, life does go on.

Yeah.

Wow.

I was like, "That's inter- that
is an interesting way to arrange

those actors." I thought so, too.

I, that's why I was like,
"Hmm." Especially to say, like,

the best work of her life.

Anyway, uh, we've always taken a guiding
principle of the show that drama isn't the

event, it's the aftermath of the event.

We think you'll find that true in
this, of this episode Thank you

for your devotion to the show.

We are continually grateful.

With all our thanks,
Robert and Michelle King.

I mean, listen, you know, it's,
it's nice of them to come out and

g- and deliver this message, right?

I think a lot of people probably
needed it in the moment of, like,

trying to really understand what
this was, what was going on.

Um, so I'm good on them for, for
deciding to, to do that and to

kind of, like, give a little more
context to this w- while also kind of

being like, "This wasn't our fault.

This was Josh's fault.

Josh wanted to leave." Like- Well, I
think they're in a tough position because

I think … Like, I don't know, I can't
remember, and I really wish I could

remember or find, like, how much chatter
was going on about the great schism.

Because if there's, if there's word
that your set is not a happy set, if

there's word that there's stuff going
on there, like, this is a calculated

PR move to say, like, "Hey, look,
Josh is leaving not because, like,

we have a hostile set environment."

Mm. "Not because there is some sort of
situation going on here with Juliana,

who's doing the best work of her
life ev- " or you know what I mean?

Like, n- not because of that.

This happened because Josh decided a
year ago, we decided this, and also

it fits within the overall scheme of
this is a show about the education

and evolution of Alicia Florrick.

And so I thought, like, it's very PR-y.

At the same time, like, I think
the fans really appreciated it.

I think it's, it's doing
both at the same time, which

I … is what good PR would do.

But it's important to kind of look
at it, I think, with the context

of what might have been said about
the show and the set in general.

Yeah, I mean, I think it
shows the care that the Kings

have for the audience, right?

Yeah.

'Cause y- you don't, you
don't always get this.

When you get these, like, really
crazy, shocking moments, you don't

always get a explanation of, like,
what went into this decision.

So yeah, I mean, good
on them for doing that.

Um, so yeah, we, you
know, we had this episode.

We knew it was gonna be a big episode.

I said, "Who can we talk to? Is there
anyone we can talk to about this

episode, the impact of this episode?"
I, for, th- as long as, as long as

this podcast has been running, I've
been trying to talk to people from the

show, have not gotten far with that.

So I was just like, "Where else
can I go?" So, like, I, I was

thinking at the time, like, okay,
the, the content about the show.

What was the conversation
about this moment and about

the show when this happened?

I was like, "Who was writing about the
show at the time?" So I decided to look

into the recaps, into who was writing
about it, and I found, uh, someone from

Vulture who was doing weekly recaps.

Um, uh, Vulture itself was
doing re- weekly recaps.

So I was like, "Okay, let's see who
was doing recaps around the time."

There's, there was a few different
people that were doing recaps.

Um, so I wrote to those people, and,
uh, Carolyn Murnick, who thankfully,

coincidentally enough, wrote the recap
for episode 15, the Will death episode.

And she got back to me 'cause I,
you know, I email these people.

I was like, "Hey. We are, uh, I know
as weird as this sounds, we are a, uh,

The Good Wife recap podcast," you know?

"And we're at that episode. We're at
the Will moment. We're at the Will

juncture, and we would love to hear
what you have to say about it and what

was, what was the feeling like at the
time, what was going on at the time."

So I look- looked into Carolyn.

I s- I was like, oh, okay, Carolyn
is, is, uh, a, is for real.

She's wrote a book.

I listened to the book of what, when
she said she was willing to come on.

I was like, I'm gonna look,
gonna listen to this book.

It's a very good book.

It's kind of like a true
crime/memoir type of deal.

Uh, so go check that out.

It's called, um, you'll hear about it in
the interview that we're about to, to sh-

to let you listen to or watch or whatever.

It's called, uh, The Hot One.

Go check that out wherever you can.

It is, you are, it is available on
Spotify if you have a, uh, one of

those memberships that allows you to
listen to the audiobooks on Spotify.

You can find it on
Audible, stuff like that.

So go check that out if you get a chance.

This is an interesting book.

Um, so yeah, so thankfully Carolyn
got back to us and was like, "Hey,

we'd be down to chat about it." And we
chatted with Carolyn, and that's what

you're, uh, gonna hear here in a second.

Yeah, and before we pu- press play
on that, I do wanna say it was

also really interesting, I think,
because Carolyn has her own story

of losing someone close to her.

Yeah.

And so in that conversation, we
kind of talk about, like, placing

ourselves in, in that moment.

So have a listen

Hello, good folks.

Today, we have a very, very
special, uh, segment, very

special episode for you today.

We have a special guest.

Today, we have Carolyn Murnick.

Carolyn is an award-winning
journalist and veteran magazine

editor at New York Magazine.

She was the resident recapper for The
Good Wife at Vulture for Season 4 in 2014.

Uh, but she was brought back to pinch-hit
for the big Will Gardner death episode,

so the perfect person to have here to talk
about this, this episode, this moment.

Uh, she's also the author of two
books, her investigative memoir, The

Hot One: A Memoir of Friendship, Sex,
and Murder, recommended by NPR and

Entertainment Weekly, and Jason Reed.

And named the Best Book
of the Year by Buzzfeed.

Tells the story of her childhood
best friend, Ashley, who was

murdered in Hollywood in 20- in 2001.

Her second book, Blood on Their Hands:
Murder, Corruption, and the Fall

of the Murdoch Dynasty, co-written
with journalist Mandy Matney, is

the definitive account of that case.

Murdoch murders, big, big, big news,
uh, in, in the more recent years.

In 2018, she gave a TEDx talk called How
Crime Shows Undermine Your Empathy, which,

if you haven't seen it, we'd recommend
watching before or after this episode.

It will change how you watch this show.

Mm-hmm.

Carolyn, welcome to The Good Pod.

Wow, thank you so much, and
thank you for that introduction.

That was so generous of you.

I'm really excited to chat.

And, um, it's, it's a real
interesting time warp to go back

to these years of recapping.

I was the, like you said,
Season 4 recapper, which was

2012 mostly, 2012, early 2013.

And then I popped up for this big episode.

And I have to say, I don't
actually remember why I did

just this one for Season 5.

Yeah.

I think obviously the, the regular
recapper had to, had to leave, and

so they were, you know, casting
about for a couple of episodes

before they could get someone big.

So I don't even know if someone, if
we even knew, like, "Okay, Carolyn,

do episode 15," and then suddenly
it's the episode that breaks open

the whole series, and I sort of-

was coming in cold to that.

I mean, do you think they,
do you think they knew?

They're like, "You know what?

I don't wanna, I don't want…"
If they knew, they're like,

"I don't wanna do this.

Let me put it on somebody else.

Let me, let me call in sick for this,
for this one." But, um- I don't know.

You know, I did wanna share, um, a little
bit about the experience of recapping

back then- Yeah, I'd love to hear that

which was so, you know, just really
feels, again, like a time capsule.

We actually got physical DVDs messengered
to the office- Yeah … to watch

episodes, and sometimes they were only
sent one to two days before the deadline.

So you had very little time.

You had to wait for this physical
copy to come in, and then, you know,

watch it in one day and write, and
that was my- That was my experience

for those years, which feels, like,
so bizarre now in, you know, in the

pre, in, it was the pre-streaming era.

They could not, they didn't have
links that they were sending.

Yeah.

I mean, so was- Yeah, at least
there- … this one any different or

was this about the, about the same?

Were they sending it, like, you know,
was it sent in, like, a, "This DVD

will self-destruct in five seconds- You
know … after you watch it," 'cause it

was such a big top secret, uh, thing?

I know.

I don't totally remember.

It's possible that by the end of my
time as recapper they were getting

into links, but I definitely remember
the physical DVDs being a thing.

Right.

And even, you know, I was
based in New York at the time.

Mm-hmm.

I worked at New York Magazine.

But one time I was working on my book
in LA, like, when I was on deadline

for Good Wife, and I had to get a
physical DVD from the LA office.

The CBS LA office was messengered
to me when I was in LA.

So even still, they couldn't do, like,
a link workaround- … wherever you

were in the country that, which I wonder
were there any recappers living in

states where there aren't messengers,
and how did- Yeah … they get their,

how did they get their episodes?

I don't know.

I also imagine the wait line for, um,
like, in the office after, uh, the

reviewer or the recapper had recapped.

Like, was there, like, a, "I get like,
I get this, uh- Oh … episode 15 after

you because I need to see…" Like,
like, not that anyone would share early

releases of anything- Mm-hmm … ever.

I don't think- Of course not

that would never happen.

Um, but if so, I, I could just
imagine it being quite a party.

Yeah.

Well- Once, once word gets around, yeah.

My memory was that, you
know, we almost had no time.

It was like- I bet … we got
it a day before it was on.

So then by the time anybody would
wanna borrow it, they had, could

already have seen it, um- Yeah

on the air.

But that's another good question.

I've, I've gotta know what your
reaction was when you, uh, when you

get into your, your emails one day
and you see so- some, some joker, some

jokers from The Good Pod say they wanna
talk about- Mm-hmm … The Good Wife.

Uh, what, what, what is this?

What was your reaction to that?

Like, oh my gosh, does it, does it
bring back all these, like, memories

of, like, oh my God, that was a time?

Yeah, it really does.

Also, you know, those years, 2013,
at lea- uh, it feels like in my

life was a, was a pivotal year.

And really anything that
happened before 2016, I think.

Oh, oh.

There's been all this talk now
about we were really just living

in a different world of- Yeah

of, of both, like, the last years of a
more, um, cohesive culture, and we did

not have this political upheaval yet.

And, you know, all the things that were
yet to come that are shaping us around,

you know, Me Too and the Weinstein
breaking- Yeah … and, you know, p-

uh, gun violence, school shootings.

Like, I was, I was looking up, like,
what was going on in the years of- season

four of The Good Wife, and that was,
um, the Sandy Hook shooting happened- Mm

I think when they were
on the winter hiatus.

And I'm pretty sure I remember,
like, wanting to write

something about that shooting.

Like, how do I just come into recapping
a TV episode this week when this

is what's going on in the world?

And I think I wrote a paragraph about
it that my editor just cut, and it's

like, "This is the TV recap world.

We're not… We're just doing this
episode." But, you know, more and more it,

it started to feel like, how do we focus
on any one thing when we're all getting

information from all over the world
about crazy things and terrible things?

And now it's, uh, even more pronounced,
that kind of information overload

and feeling like you're, uh, gonna
get a New York Times alert that

changes everything all day long.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But in 2013- It, uh- … it
wasn't quite like that yet.

Yeah.

Uh- I think that's, like, a
common experience for, I know

us as podcasters covering the
show, but also for our audience.

It's just like the… It feels like
there's, like, a time warp or a time

schism between then and now, and
how can we not bring in this lens

of 2026 when we're re-watching it?

Mm-hmm.

So as we get into, to questions about
the show, I'd love to hear, like,

your perspective looking at it now.

But Jason, take it away.

Uh, yeah.

I mean, let's, uh, I wanna get into the
actual experience of watching- Mm-hmm

… 'cause you had, you had it early.

Mm-hmm.

And you s- you, you watch
this episode, and it's- Mm-hmm

I, I wonder if you were like all of
us, like, "No, they didn't, they didn't

just kill- Mm-hmm … they didn't just
kill Will Gardner, did they?" Mm-hmm.

Like, they, they, they wouldn't do that.

This is, this is his show.

Mm-hmm.

So what, what was your guttural
reaction when first watching it

with fresh eyes for the first time?

Um, well, you know, I, I, my memory
is of course like, you know, this is,

this is traumatic and this is painful,
and probably as a recapper I, I must

have thought, like, "I can't believe I
have to deal with this." Like, I, you

know, this is such- Especially on a sub.

You know, this is- On a sub assignment.

… this is major.

And, uh, I was not… You know,
The Good Wife, um, season four was

the only recapping I've ever done,
which is why that als- also hearing

from you guys makes it funny.

I mean, that was… I was an editor
at New York Magazine, I was on staff,

I did a bunch of other, uh, I covered
a lot of, um, other sort of general

interest topics, like the, the travel
section, the food section, I covered,

like, what was going on in New York City.

And then, you know, my friend Jada
Yuan, who was also a great journalist

and was recapping the earlier
seasons, knew I watched the show.

She wanted to move on, so I just sort
of took it because I was in-house.

But I, I still was grappling with,
like, what is a TV recap supposed to do?

What is, you know, what
is the purpose of it?

And, you know, Jada's advice
was the recap, kind of like your

podcast, is sort of this container
for p- for your commenters to

really, um, express their feelings.

And so you, you wanna summarize the
action and bring in insight that you

can, you know, look up from whatever
historical context clues they're giving,

and what you know about the actors.

But it's really creating this container
for the community discussion and the

community processing of, um, each episode,
'cause you have these very committed fans.

And I, you know, that's
something that I experienced.

There were, there were, you know,
a side conversation, there would be

conversations on Twitter about the
recap, and we had these core Twitter

commenters that would comment in our
comment section, as well as online.

And, um, so I, you know, I w- I was
learning on the job around what, what

is the purpose and what value can I
offer with this, um, with this writing?

And so f- I, I think I was trying to,
you know, progress as I, as I went.

Looking around at New York Magazine,
and Vulture at the time had some really

sophisticated recap writers, and we
had these, you know, award-winning

journalists that had been recappers,
like Emily Nussbaum, who went on to- Hmm.

Mm-hmm … win the Pulitzer Prize
for criticism at The New Yorker.

She was a Mad Men recapper, you know,
in the few years before I took on,

um, The Good Wife, and we also had
some very, very popular Gossip Girl

recaps that were done by, um, Jessica
Pressler and Chris Rowser, who are, you

know, great journalists and editors.

So I had this pool of people that I
was trying to watch and learn from,

and sort of be, um, on the same page
with, and sometimes it was a challenge.

Sometimes I would feel like, "Ugh,
I'm not… I don't know if I'm up

to this," 'cause I would look around
at what, you know, Emily Nussbaum

was doing with Mad Men and, and
think like, "Whoa, how does…

How do they understand how to put so much
context into this, and how to really,

um, put so much meaning and detail and
observation?" But, you know, now looking

back on it, I get that, again, these,
these recaps, both online and also your

show, they're a container to talk about
larger issues, and I think the larger

issue of s- episode 15 is trauma, and,
you know, it's gun violence, but it's

also this maybe universal experience
of Like, uh, whether you're in the room

or not, getting a call that changes
your life, that changes everything.

Whether it's a call that your, uh, someone
has died unexpectedly or someone's in an

accident, or hearing news that changes
everything that's gonna puncture your

day and create a before and after.

That's what that episode is.

Yeah, I mean, and you did a great
job in the recap, 'cause I did

read the recap you did for Vulture.

Mm-hmm.

And you, you were kind of, you were
there with us as an audience like-

Mm-hmm … "Hey, I know, I know
you guys are struggling with this.

I am too.

Let's talk about it.

Let's- Yeah … get through it."
So you did a great job with that.

And you know, you mentioned,
like, you know, it's, it's a

very human experience to- Mm-hmm

just be going about your day and
then you get a call- Mm-hmm … that

your life has changed dramatically.

Mm-hmm.

And- Mm-hmm … you know, it's, it,
it's, it's just such a universal

experience, and I, and I love that.

You know, as, you know, the Kings
write, like right after this was

released, this episode was released,
the Kings wrote a letter to the fans.

Mm-hmm.

You know, kind of- Yeah … kind
of talking us down a little bit.

Like, "Hey, we know you guys are
really sad." Like, and they, they

tell us like, "Hey, this was in
the, in the works for a long time.

Josh Charles wants to leave the
show." What, was there any, any buzz?

Like, 'cause I think you mentioned in
your recap, like there was some- Yeah

buzz that Josh Charles was looking
to leave the show, but no, like

no one saw it happening this way.

No.

What was that, what was the
conversation like in the beforehand?

Was, was there that kind of
buzz in the air like, Josh

Charles is looking to leave?

Like, what, what was, what, what was
the conversation like at the time?

Good question, and I
totally don't remember.

And I know that, uh, so somehow I must,
I knew something, he wanted to leave.

It, I remember, so my recap compares,
you know, I, I, I mention like, uh- The

Downton Abbey death of- Yeah … Matthew.

And, and that one was like, you know-
Don't, don't listen, Jason … kind of

everyone saw- Everyone saw it coming more.

Oh, did I give something away here or no?

Jason hasn't watched it.

Oh.

I'm not, I'm not, I'm
not, I'm not going to.

That's why.

Well, cover your ears here.

But, well it's interesting because
Matthew Goode who is a- Yeah … you

know, pivotal actor on this episode
was in Downton Abbey, and he sort of

took over when this character died.

Yes.

Um, but you know, there was sort
of this sudden death of this

well-loved character on that show.

But that one, I feel like there was a lot
more in the ether already that this guy's

leaving, and there's gonna be something
dumb happening to him at the end.

But I think somehow the Will
death was more shocking.

And I guess this sort of random
gun violence of it all makes it

just traumatic for the viewer.

And I think watching this again now
it, it, it really captures that trauma.

Like, I felt emotionally, um,
emotionally affected by watching it

again, probably even more so now.

Yeah.

And I think one of the reasons why, at
least from my perspective that it works

so well, and I, I love your perspective
on this as well, is just how it,

it's one of those like, "He did what?

He d- he died how?" Like, it's
not- Mm-hmm … you don't… Like,

gun violence is so far away from
you until it's right next to you.

You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Like that type of thing.

And also the fact that all of these
characters kept rep- repeating to

themselves, "I just saw him." Yeah.

"I just talked to him." Like, you never
know the last time you're gonna really

speak to someone, and I think that that
is like a, a universal experience as well.

Mm-hmm.

And The, The Kings kind
of highlighted that.

And I know that like that's something
that, um, you've kind of explored

in your, the work of your books
and things like that as well.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, any perspective on, on that
part, especially like going into

episode 16- Right … we see the
aftermath of the actual death- Mm-hmm

and how- Mm-hmm … everyone's just
kind of like, "But I just saw him.

I just- Mm-hmm.

"He was right there." And that I think
to me anytime I find news of somebody

had passed away it's like, oh, oh yeah.

It could happen at any time I guess.

Mm-hmm.

And that's also traumatic
to, to think about.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, you're right.

And so, uh, my first book, The Hot
One, was about my search for answers

surrounding my childhood best friend's
murder, and she was killed in 2001.

They arrested someone in 2008
who ended up being in custody.

You know, he was in jail awaiting
trial for another 11 years.

So the trial didn't
even happen until 2019.

My book, uh, came out before the
trial, 'cause it would just…

It was going on for too long,
and I had to meet the deadline.

Yeah.

So, but the years of when I was a recapper
and, you know, in my early 30s, I was

spending time working on this book, which
involved, uh, going to LA where she had

lived and attending pretrial hearings for
her killer and also meeting her friends

and also kind of just reckoning with
sort of why am I doing this and why this

relationship was so meaningful to me.

And you know, trying to get as much
information as I could around who

she was in the, you know, we- year
or weeks leading up to her murder

and also the impact, what, what it
means to kind of, that now, you know,

a decade later I, I was spending my
time kind of in, in tribute to her.

Mm-hmm.

And some of the, the s- the storytelling
and the decisions that they made in

episode 16 was reminding me of, you
know, the, the kind of, was reminding me

of some of, of the thinking in my book
which is that this, it's, it, the whole,

you know, the research process and the
writing and I think the narrative itself

is a little bit like a, a grief work in
a way because I recognize the instinct to

want to learn as much about the details.

Like if you know about how the killer,
you know, met her, you know, met my friend

Ashley and what had their interactions
had been and, you know, you're trying

to sort of reckon with if you know all
the details somehow you can reverse

it or somehow you can deal with it.

And I see that that's what they're
going through in episode 16 with going

around to, you know, Kalinda going
to the gunman's jail cell- Mm-hmm

and, you know, wanting
to know those details.

And then we have Alicia interviewing
the Matthew Goode character and so

I was recognizing this impulse to
somehow wanna know all the details.

And then at the same time Alicia has
these fantasy moments, you know, we have

these moments where you see a man that
she thinks is Will and it's not, or you

have, you know, the, the very end of the
episode which was so devastating, this

sort of imagined final conversation.

I, you know, that felt resonant to me
around some of the things that I write

about in my book which one element of
it is kind of this, this reckoning with

the power of, of friendships and that
people, you know, these relationships

that change you that never leave you
even after- Mm … the person has died.

Yeah, you can also feel that in
kind of like creating parallel

universes in a way, right?

Like- Mm-hmm … what if I had done this?

Yeah.

Would it have changed anything?

Yeah.

Uh, you know, Alicia says like, "That was
my case," like- Mm-hmm … to Diane in 16.

It's like she's, she's saying just
like, "What if I had that case?

Would Will still be alive?" Yeah.

Yeah.

Like y- and you, you, you al-
you ask all these what ifs.

A- as we see Alicia go through
several times this episode, like

what was that last conversation?

What was he going to say?

What could that have changed-
Mm-hmm … about my life?

Where she- Yeah … she's going so far
as to imagine Will wanting to run away

with her at the very end of the episode.

And- Mm-hmm … you know, it- that's, and
we all know that's grief talking, right?

Of like- Mm-hmm … you, you, you create
these universes in your mind where, you

know, Alicia and, and Will were not even
in the, nowhere near a space for that to-

Yeah … have actually been something.

But she's just going through all
these scenarios, and just how

powerful that moment was with Peter.

Like at the end where he's
like, he's hugging her.

Yeah.

And she's just like dead.

She's just like, "No, like I, you,
you're not- Yeah … the one I want.

Like it's Will I want." It's so wild.

It's so, and that's
what grief does to you.

It m- it makes you create those parallel
universes, the sliding doors of it all.

What would have happened?

What could my life have been like in,
you know, 5 years, 10 years from now?

And that really makes you think
about life and think about like

the life that could have been.

It was too late to have that happen.

But Alicia wasn't thinking
about that eight hours ago.

Now she is.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so that's just kind of like one of
those wild things that grief does to you.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I wanna talk about kind of
where, where this moment lies in

like in the TV landscape of it all.

Mm-hmm.

Because this was, you
know, how many years ago?

50, uh, uh, making my mind, 12 years ago.

And in your recap you like, you likened
this to, you know, Matthew Crawley's

car, car crash in Downtown Abbey.

Yeah.

Uh, Brody's death in Homeland.

Yeah.

You know, 12 years later, is this… If
someone's putting a l- a list together

of top 10 most shocking TV deaths-
Mm-hmm … does this still make it?

Hmm.

Like 12 years on, what other deaths
have there been that have like this

much of a magnitude out of nowhere?

You know, recently we had- Right

Euphoria end, and I think some people
were surprised at a death there.

But I think it was…
You could imagine that.

Mm. This was out of left field.

Yeah.

Does it still clock as
a top shocking TV death?

Mm. Well, you know, to me, to me, um,
it's shocking certainly, and maybe

this goes together with the impact
of it is- was profound, I think, and

that maybe that's connected to the
shock or impact can be its own thing.

I actually think the, the death was
handled to me with a way that created

a lot of emotional resonance and
depth and it re- it also reminded

me of a more recent death, which
was, um, Logan on Succession.

Mm-hmm.

Which was not necessarily surprising
because he's old, and it was

foreshadowed in a different way
that he had other medical issues.

But the experience of, you know, he
has this heart attack on a plane,

and the information gets lost.

You know, there- some people
are calling other people to try

to communicate what's happened.

Is he dead?

Can there be a doctor?

The sort of misconnect- the mis- the
crossed wires of what's actually happened.

That's kind of what was happening in Good
Wife, too, with, you know, they're hear-

this thing, information's trickling out.

There's a shooting in the courtroom.

That's Will's courtroom.

Where is he?

They get to the hospital.

They don't even know he's dead yet.

Um, I found that very, very
powerful a- and almost not even

related to was it shocking.

It was just powerful.

I, I, and I, and watching it again,
I don't know if I would have thought

about it 12 years later, but I
appreciate the opportunity to watch

it again, and I find it powerful.

L- as powerful as, you know, Logan's
death on Succession recently.

And another thing, you know, this reminds
me, another thing in my own life that

is not connected, you know, not having
to do with my friend's murder that I was

researching at the time- A few months
after, um, Good Wife season four, so

later in 2013, I got a call that my
father had collapsed, and I, and no

one knew what happened, and I had to
leave work and rush to the hospital.

I did not know if he was alive or not.

Over the next few days, we
pieced together that he had had

a cardiac arrest at the gym.

He had been resuscitated.

He was in a coma.

We l- we had 10 days of just
sort of touch and go, life and

death, extreme stress, trauma.

He ended up, you know, getting this
miraculous life-saving surgery.

He's made a full recovery.

He's still with us.

That was a- Good … you know.

Oh, yeah.

But I look at that, that is one of…
You know, that's one of my great traumas

of life, this… And, uh, that's my
touch point for this experience of

getting a call in the middle of a
work day that changes everything,

that pushes you into another realm.

Um, and watching the Good Wife episode
reminded me of that, uh, and it, and

also it recalls that time, and also
the Logan Succession death re- recalls

that time, of just the early, the,
the early hours, sometimes days, of

not knowing what's actually happened.

Is that, is it real?

Like, you get a call, someone's collapsed.

Are they dead?

What does that mean?

They're getting a call
that someone's shot.

What does it mean?

Yeah.

It just felt very, uh, very true
to life in a, in a devastating

and, um, significant way.

Yeah, I agree.

I think it's also, like, the what-ifs
that come up when you get that call, too.

Yeah.

It's the combination
of, "Oh, there's news.

It's not complete." Yeah.

And I have… Like, for your own sanity,
at least in, when I've received those

calls, I want to complete the story.

Yeah.

I want to jump in and fill in
the holes b- because then I'll

have something to react to.

I'll have something there.

And sometimes you're not
gonna get the answer.

Mm-hmm.

Sometimes y- you are
gonna get the full answer.

Yeah.

And I think we see in, uh, in 16, and,
and I know in our, in our, our lives

collectively, like, how that can be
hard to just deal with, going with the

back and forth of reality and the what
if real- and then, like, the, the-

Mm-hmm … coulda, coulda beens, right?

Like, there's so many- Yeah … different
things kind of happening in that

moment that can be really hard to-
Ground yourself in- Mm-hmm … in that.

And, and the thing about Will's death
is that The Good Wife is not a show that

you think this would be happening on.

Mm-hmm.

Which I think, I think makes it
even more out of nowhere shocking.

Like I was- Yeah … I was, I
was looking at, okay, what are

the top TV shocking deaths?

And we've got, we've got shows, we've
got… I mean, listen, uh, I'll s-

spoiler alert for Game of Thrones.

Mm. Ned Stark.

Like, if you, if you read the
books you might have known.

So that's not, it's not
like- … totally out of nowhere.

Uh, I'm, I'm just going
down this Hollywood list.

Well, that one has
another one too, but yes.

Well yes, it has several, I'm sure.

Um Charlie Pace lost.

Probably a pretty shocking one,
I think, uh, go- is up there.

I, uh, but again, a show where people die.

I think probably one of the more
comparable ones to this, uh,

spoiler alert for Grey's Anatomy,
um Derek Shepherd, Grey's Anatomy.

But- Mm … well, people die on
that show all the time though.

Does that that is kind of a caveat.

But I think that one was another, like,
out of nowhere left, left part, but

I think probably people had already
surmised that, uh… What was his name?

McSteamy?

McDreamy was go- was on the way out.

Patrick Mc, Patrick Dempsey.

Yeah, Patrick Dempsey.

So this one really to me really
just go, is ranks up there with,

like- Mm … the most shocking ones.

Mm. I think what's also kind of
can impact that is, like, the

size of the TV landscape, right?

Like, the- Mm. Like, this was, like, a
network show that was- Yeah … that,

and we were in the routine.

Like, The Good, The Good Wife every
time I think about… Yes, it was like

their, like, we had Netflix-ish, right?

But we didn't have the bingeable
situation- Yeah … happening yet.

And so we had appointment television where
you would go and you would sit in front

of your TV at a s- very specific time, and
it was like you're caught in that routine,

and this disrupts that routine 'cause one
of your favorite characters is now gone.

And that feeling is a lot larger
when you don't have- The screa- the,

the screaming, streaming landscape-
Mm-hmm … of today where- Yeah

… there's everything that's going on.

And some people, like, some people, like
you said, Jason, you had to put a spoiler

word, uh, out there for Game of Thrones.

Game of Thrones was, you know, a big
show, but because of the choices that

people have now, you might have missed it.

Um, but I, I wanted to talk to you,
Carolyn, a little bit about, uh, the

thesis of your TED Talk- Yeah … for
a moment, 'cause I, I found it to be

very… As someone, um, I don't, I
don't expect you to have listened to,

to The Good Pod, but, uh, I cannot not
talk about things outside of the show.

Mm. I tend to be one of the people
who will draw the, the connections

between what's going on then and now.

Mm-hmm.

So the fact that you gave a TED Talk
talking about how, um, it's usually

women who are killed on crime shows
to give men something to do, I was

like, "Yes, Carolyn. Yes." Mm-hmm.

Thank you for saying, saying the
thing, the hardest thing, um, out loud.

And the Kings, like, when they, when they
wro- wrote that letter, they explained

to us as the fans of, like, Will was
killed for Alicia's benefit, the- Mm

for, for the- Oh … furthering
of Alicia's story in this.

And so- That's interesting … I, I
was wondering i- they, they phrased

it as, like, Alicia's education.

Mm. Because she's never… Like,
she's been so sheltered that she's

never really experienced the loss.

She's been the good wife- Right, right
… the good person for so long, right?

Um, so I, I just would, wanted to
get your perspective if- Mm … well,

first of all, if you did finish
watching the show, and like all of that

stuff, do you think that that worked?

Do you think that that was a thing
that worked for Alicia's character?

Or- Mm … any other thoughts on shows
that have kind of played with this- You

know, not killing a woman ins- Mm-hmm

i- for, for the benefit of the plot.

Yeah.

Well, that's interesting to…
I, you know, I, I forgot about

that part of the king's letter.

Um, and you know, it's true, my talk and
also my book is, uh, sort of interrogating

traditional true crime storytelling,
which is most of the time focused on the

male killer and his arc, and he's the
interesting one, and female victims are

considered, you know, plot points along
his, you know, rise and fall or whatever.

So it's always that the male killer is
the center and, and the interesting one.

And so with my book, I was trying
to do something different, um, and

trying to, you know, make a sort of
feminist, uh, feminist true crime

storytelling, if that's possible.

And so I appreciate, looking back,
you know, that The Good Wife was

a feminist show for its time in
that the, you know, Alicia Florrick

character is sort of like…

I, I should have looked this up,
but I, I think about, um, you

know, Eliot Spitzer was this, uh-
Yeah … political scandal in New York

that I don't even remember what year.

But so Eliot Spitzer had this Good
Wife s- you know, standing or, by

him when he was a disaster, and
then, you know, she's also a little

bit like a Hillary Clinton figure.

Mm. So it was this idea of like, what
if, what if these good, these women

that we've seen a bunch of now actually
get to, actually get to be the hero in

their own story in a complicated way?

And that was when, I don't know,
we had a, we were more in the,

like, the future is female, um,
arc, and things have kind of…

We're in a backlash arc now.

Yeah.

And so, um, it's
interesting to look at that.

I mean, Alicia was a complicated, flawed
character, but also represented a more

hopeful feminist moment culturally.

That we're not really in
anymore, I don't think.

What do you guys… I don't know.

Oh.

Yeah.

I definitely would agree with you.

And you also had Diane Lockhart
as kind of the- Mm-hmm … like,

the, the senior version of what
we wanted Alicia to be, right?

Like- Mm-hmm … and, and as you
said, like, Alicia is not, is not a, a

monolith of, like, this is how you do it.

Yeah.

She was a complex character.

Like, and you know, almost similar to your
book, uh, you're complex in your book.

Uh, Ashley is complex in your book.

Mm-hmm.

So that, that was really, like,
a, a good, like, example of, like-

Mm-hmm … how we can, how we can
write people, how people actually are.

'Cause you have Alicia, who's a
fictional character, and you have

you and Ashley, who are real people.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And it, it just shows we
are all complex people.

We have good sides, we have bad
sides, we have all those sides.

I think it's something that The Good
Wife does really well, and I think it is

interesting what… where the kids go.

This is for Alicia's, uh, education.

This is for, to prepare-
Mm-hmm … Alicia for the next

incarnation of who she's going to be.

So I, I'm real- I'm so…

And I ki- I semi remember, 'cause
that… Here's, here's the thing about

our wa- re-watching The Good Wife.

Yes.

Neither one of us had watched
it in, like, a decade.

Yeah.

So we're, we're kind of rediscovering
things- Yeah … as we go along.

Like a- So, yeah … first
re-watch type of situation.

Yeah.

Uh-huh.

Like, we watched it when it aired,
but we have not watched it since.

Right.

Me either.

Yeah.

I was wondering what you thought.

Did you watch, um, the Matlock
reboot with Kathy Bates recently?

So I did- I have not.

No.

It- And that was… I was like, that
actually… I was like, "Oh, this is

my first time watching, like, a CBS
primetime show since The Good Wife." Yeah.

And I, and it has, it has some of
the same comforts as The Good Wife.

It's not quite as dark, I guess,
in a way, but it's, it's…

I thought it was well done.

I recommend that one.

I'll definitely watch the next season.

I'll have to check that one out.

I was also curious to see if you had
watched The Good Fight, to see the

continuation of the story, because that,
if you have not, definitely does go deeper

into some of the stuff they couldn't say
on network TV, 'cause it was a- Mm-hmm

show.

Um- Yeah … so it does a little bit more
of talking about the political landscape.

And also, what happens to
Diane Lockhart, the, you know,

I did everything by the book.

I, it's, I played in the man's world.

Mm-hmm.

I did all of this stuff.

What happens to her
character when 2016 happens?

When- Yeah … 2020 happens?

When all of these things, especially
after her best friend was just

killed by a gun, and she's married-
Mm-hmm … to a gun man, you know?

Like, like, like she- Yeah … like,
there's a, a, a complexity there

that if you have not watched,
I highly, highly recommend.

I've heard it's really great, and I
haven't watched it, but I will now.

It's, it's on Paramount, right?

Yes.

Right?

Yep.

Yes.

So I just got a free trial of Paramount
so that I could re-watch- Hey … these

episodes to talk to you guys.

Oh, okay.

So now I will try to watch The
Good Fight in the next five days.

You can do it.

Yes.

You can do it.

I can do it.

You got this.

It's completely bingeable.

You got this.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I did, I was wondering 'cause, uh,
you know, as I was reading your book,

I, you talk a little bit about, you
know, 'cause you did, you did a lot

of investigative work in, in your, uh,
in Ashley's trial and like the- Mm-hmm

… the trial of, of, uh, of her killer.

And I was wondering if being a part of
that and witnessing that kind of colored

your perspective a little bit on shows
like The Good Wife and all the court

process, and like, what, what was your,
what were your feelings while you're going

through it and then, you know, watching?

'Cause I mean, you at the time, this was
like concurrent with you kind of like-

Mm-hmm … recapping The Good Wife.

How that, how was, were those
two experiences, watching the

show then actually going through-
Mm-hmm … a court experience?

Um, well, I, you know, I
appreciate the question.

I think we all have… A lot of people
only have their relationship to court is

if, if you're lucky, your relationship
to courtrooms is just jury duty- Mm-hmm

you know, once every 48 years.

And jury duty most of the time, unless
you're picked, you don't really learn

that much and don't really, uh, you
know, you're not really understanding

what's going on in a tr- in a courtroom
and all the different kinds of courts.

And that was my experience with court
before I started working on my book.

And then suddenly I, you know, placed,
I put myself in these, in this, like,

hearings for a serial killer in LA
in this courthouse that's one of the

most, you know, famous, um, districts
of… I'm probably s- using the wrong

words, but it's the same courthouse
where all the high-profile trials

of LA take place, like the OJ trial.

Like, any celebrity that ends up in
court goes through this building.

It's like a, it's, it w- felt like
a, a major, um, cultural, um, place

of significance where I felt a, a
lot of imposter syndrome even being

there, like very over my head.

And so, you know, my early experiences
in court, and probably even my later

ones with going to this hearing,
was like, "This is kind of scary,"

and like, "Am I allowed to be here?

Am I supposed to be here?

Is it, can I sit here?" And, uh, you know,
these people, the judge, the bailiffs,

the, you know, the other attorneys that
come in to watch, like, just getting

a sense of all these figures and what
they do, what they're supposed to do,

what the rules are, the unspoken rules.

It was a big s- you know, steep
learning curve to understand what this

process is, and I, and I still don't.

But, and, and I see these court shows,
they're, they're exciting because

I think court, a, a lot of court
is not, is probably not exciting.

Like, there's a lot of court that
goes on where it's like someone's,

you know, traffic court, someone
showing up for parking tickets all

day long or, you know, people showing
up for much lower stakes stuff.

But then there are these high-profile
trials, which was maybe the kinds

of trials that were dramatized in
The Good Wife and also the trial for

Ashley's killer in Los Angeles that
were really as big as it gets in terms

of the amount of resources that are
devoted toward, um, the prosecution

and the defense, and the security
around them, and the media attention,

and the, the high stakes for everyone
involved, the people who are testifying.

Um- It's a lot.

And so, uh, you know, I still look at
these shows and I'm, and I'm interested

in, like, I- it's n- you know, I, I, I
still look at these shows with fascination

around, wow, these, these lawyers are
quite… They act quite confidently,

and they, they, they seem to really
understand this unspoken language of

what, how you can talk to judges, or
if you get this judge, you're lucky.

This shows up a little bit on
Your Friends & Neighbors- Hmm.

Mm-hmm … which I've been watching
too, which I think I just saw

the fin- finale of the season.

It feels like kinda going off the
rails, but- Mm-hmm … there's a

couple of, um, there's a couple of
very expensive, competent lawyers

and courtroom scenes in that show,
where I'm just, you know, I'm still

continually impressed by these people.

So I guess I would say, um, yeah, my,
my experience, uh, being in the, you

know, observing this high-profile trial
of my friend's killer and, and also the

pretrial hearings and the years of lead-up
that went into it, I think, um, gives

me a little bit, um, extra layer of, of
respect and sort of understanding of…

Courtrooms, I think, are fascinating
for a writer, because there's so many

different narratives to observe, and
that's something that I recognized

when I started writing about it.

Like, oh, I can sit here, and there's
almost a play going on around, like,

w- you know, what, what someone,
someone's getting interviewed in

front of me on the stand, and how
they're looking uncomfortable at this

question, or less, or they're, you
know, there's something they don't

want people to hear, and they're
angry, and then the judge is bored.

And there's so many different little
details you can observe that I think you

see on, on good courtroom shows as well.

Yeah.

I love, I love a courtroom.

Like, and then of course, because
I've watched all these shows, I

think I could be a lawyer, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Like, it's one of those.

Like, obviously, it's just the same.

Um- You should go for it.

Yeah.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Um, one of the questions I have, uh, kind
of related to that is going, if, if you

were to rewatch The Good Wife or, uh, uh,
yeah, if you were gonna rewatch The Good

Wife, knowing what you've been through
with your experience and just living in

the world since then, like, how, what
lens would you be looking at the show now?

What would you be looking, would you
be looking out for certain things?

Would you be, like, looking
at it in a different way than

you looked at it originally?

Yeah.

Well, I, you know, I think it's, it
says… It feels a lot different in a

way that I wouldn't say the show's dated,
because it's still good television.

But it, it, I feel like it is
clearly a product of a different

time, and maybe kind of a more
hopeful time in a, in a way.

Um, I feel like we, there's been talk
around, like, what's this other show?

This idea of like- We wanna
watch competent people.

Some sort- Oh yeah, competency porn, as
they call it … yeah, competency porn.

In some ways, The Good
Wife is kind of that.

Like, there's this com- this, these
people are high level and smart, and

like they have this sophisticated law
firm where they're considering all

the angles, and, you know, maybe they
are… There's politics going on,

but they're smart, competent people,
and there's something com- there's

something comforting about that.

And that is even more absent in our world-
Mm-hmm … in these days, these years.

And so that element is feeling more
present to me when I re-watched

it, the competency of it.

And, um, yeah, and also, like I said,
the kind of more hopeful feminist moment

that I feel like Alicia represented,
and just sort of the quaintness of

that there was, there was less on TV.

There was, this was more of a, a
thing that- Yeah … could draw a

greater audience, that we could,
that people were coalesced upon.

There's a nostalgia for, um, the
pre-streaming era Yes, for sure.

22-episode, uh, seasons of TV,
which, you know- Yeah … some people

are, are into, some people aren't.

I say bring it back.

I used- Yeah

I used to love the 22-episode era TV.

Now we have, you know, we're lucky
if we get eight episodes a season.

Um, and I, I, I'm someone that loves
continuity, loves a story, loves a

long story, so I do really long for
those days of 22-episode seasons of TV.

And y- you're right, like, a
favorite thing of ours to do on

this podcast is look at these
things and be like, "Oh, boy.

If only you knew- … what was
coming- Yeah … in 2026." Fuck yeah.

Like Well, even I was thinking, like,
Chris Noth has been canceled, right?

Yes.

I mean, yes.

Yep.

It's like Chris Noth- Yes … is a bad
guy now, but back then he was, like, sort

of appealing and, like, he's no more.

Um- Let's, let me tell you, Carolyn,
you don't, you don't, you, you haven't

listened to our podcast, so you don't
know this, but Marissa loves- Hates

loves Chris Noth.

Hates.

She loves Peter Florick.

Hates.

Her favorite character.

No, I do not.

No.

Um, the reason, everything he does.

Just imagine.

I cannot stand that man.

There's even a thing, uh, Carolyn,
we do a thing where if he does even,

like, one thing, like, remotely above a
bar- … like, like, like then, then I'm

like, "Okay, I will acknowledge that."

But he, he has a lot of work to do.

Yeah.

He, he has a star chart.

He's at cur- he's currently
at one and a half stars.

Whenever he does something okay or decent,
we give him like a little point of a star.

Yeah.

Uh, so he's at one and a half now over
the, the, the course of the series.

Fireable offenses.

We've taken away, we've taken away
parts of stars for things he's done.

Um, so we still have a long
ways to go with Peter, uh, to,

to, to get some more stars.

But, and, and, you know, a- as talking
about the things that we see with

different lens, like, there was this
moment in 15 where they talk about Kalinda

and Carrie, and- Oh, yeah … Alicia
goes, "I thought she was gay." Like-

Yeah … he's like, "There's like,
I don't know, bi or something."

It's like- Yeah … oh, boy.

Like, they just did not… I, it's,
it was, it was the world 2014.

It's just like, oh my God.

Like, you don't, you didn't even know.

I do, I do wanna say, Carolyn, I love how
you handled that in your recap, 'cause

you were like- … "Yeah, okay." Yeah.

"Moving on." Like, I don't
really know how to handle that.

It's funny, yeah.

Ev- every time, every time there was,
like, a, every time there was some sexual

scene o- usually that involved Kalinda,
I would be like, "How do I write this?"

Like, "Is this okay?" Like, I s- I d-
yeah, something, there was something

around, I don't even know if I put this
in, but I, I, sometime in season four

there was, like, a sex scene with Kalinda
where I was watching it and I was like,

"Are they supposed to be having anal sex?

Is that what the sh- or
not?" 'Cause I can't tell.

And I remember talking about it with
someone in the office, like, "Do I write

that in a recap?" Like, "Is that anal, or
am I, are I supposed to know- … if it

is as the recapper?" And then this other
editor was advising me, "You could just

have it as a question, 'Is that anal?'"

Like, I- You know what
episode I'm talking about?

I'm totally, I know I'm totally- I, I
don't … talking out the cuff here.

I don't.

In, in season four it would have to
have been- I- Was it, was it Lana?

Was it the FBI lady?

I think so, yeah.

It was probably the FBI lady.

But it, the evolution of
Kalinda's sex scenes is- Yeah

is interesting to track- Mm-hmm
… throughout The Good Wife because in

seasons, in seasons one, two, and three,
it was just kind of like it was very

strongly hinted at- Mm-hmm … that
she was doing things with the women.

They would c- Mm-hmm … they would cut
away from her be- right before they're

about to do something with a woman.

And now, you know, in season five
we're actually having these, like-

Right … these, these sex scenes.

Of course, they're weird sex scenes where,
uh, the, the current lady she's bedding

is, like, doing Katy Perry lyrics, like,
as they're- Mm-hmm … they're having

sex, which is weird in the first place.

But we're, we're in a better
place now in 2014 with, uh, with,

you know, uh, LGBTQ sex, right?

Like, we're- Mm-hmm … we're finally
getting to s- some of the good stuff here.

But yeah, it's definitely been a journey.

Speaking of Kalinda, we, we ha- we've
been tracking it the whole time.

It's been a big, it's a big part of The
Good Wife lore, uh, of all the fans.

And you, you can see it e- especially
in, like, in 16, uh, where there's

this edict that Kalinda and Alicia may
never be in the same scene together.

Mm. They can only speak on the phone.

At the time, in the, in the hubbub…
You know, in season four when you were

recapping every week- What was that like?

What, what, was, was there this, was
there a realization of like, "What's

going on here?" Like, "What is happening
with these people?" Good question.

I, you know, I did not reread all my
season four recaps, so I don't know-

if I ever addressed that, but I would
imagine I did not, because that's

the sort of like s- evolved TVI, um,
observation that I don't know if I

quite had yet as like a, you know-
Oh … my first time recapping.

S- ri- thinking about the way, you know,
these decisions around these, these

actors' contracts or what might be going
on is influencing who's on set the same

day, I didn't even think in those terms.

Now I feel like we are much more
versed, and people like you are, you

know, raising these questions, but
I don't think I was- I don't think

any- … or even- I don't think watchers
of the show were either, Carolyn.

Mm-hmm.

I don't think you're, you had a
dumpster fire- Yeah … at all.

I think there's also, like to your point
in terms of like the conversations,

I think from our standpoint we're
just like so, because there, there

has been talk of the separation.

We call it on the show The Great Schism
between these- Mm … two characters.

Mm-hmm.

Because they were friends.

They were like best friends, and then
all of a sudden, like even in, in, if

you watch in 16, the way that Alicia, um,
talks to Kalinda- Mm-hmm … is just kind

of like a coworker talking to another
coworker, and not a, not like a friend.

Well, it's a, it de- So I think like part
of- It denotes a friendship that has not

been on the show in the whole season.

Well, the, yeah.

So it's very odd.

Yeah.

But I think the reason we just were
also asking, 'cause we were like,

"Is there any insider tea that you
would have- Mm … as the recapper

at that time that would have had- Ooh

that like would have said
like, 'Don't talk about it.

Don't talk about the schism.

Don't talk about these things.' Only
because like- I'm sorry to disappoint.

Yeah.

It's okay.

It's okay.

Yeah.

It's all good to know.

I, now I'm remembering who, who I
thought Kalinda, Kal- the anal sex thing.

It was a man.

Wasn't there some man that she
was dating, where there was like

sort of S&M-y type scenes- Yes

and it was always like-
Blake … darkly lit? Yes.

Yeah.

No, it was- It was probably Blake
then … it was, it was her husband

Oh, oh, no, it was her husband.

Husband, yes.

Oh, it was the husband.

Nick.

To me it was that guy.

There was this there was this one
time- Yes … where Nick was eating

an ice cream cone, and she like put
her fingers inside the ice cream cone.

Right.

I, I, I forgot what the- Oh,
yeah, we don't know what happened

with the- … insinuation was
Yeah … it was, it was terrible.

That was one of the- It sounds like,
so it was that guy and- Yeah … yeah,

a big question for me is, like,
what are, you know, what are they-

Sure … trying to show here?

Does it, is that, are we s- you
know, is this significant that

we're supposed to understand
something about their type of sex?

I don't know.

I, that was a, ha- left me
flummoxed as a recapper.

I don't know.

Carolyn, we- Understandably
so … we've, we've been waiting,

we've been waiting the whole series.

Our, uh, you know- Mm-hmm … my
kingdom for a good Kalinda, you know,

pairing or something 'cause, like, all
the people- Yeah … she gets paired

with are just awful and terrible.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah.

Like, you know, of course we're,
you know, we were just wondering,

like, "Hey, was there any hint
about this Julianna Margulies, Argy

Pegaby- Mm … scandal, uh, back in
the day?" But no, apparently not.

It- I wish I, I wanted, I wish I knew
that, um, but I wanted to give a shout

out to Jada Yuan, who I mentioned
earlier, who was the recapper for

seasons, I think, one through three or
whenever we started, and I mentioned

to her your podcast and I said, "Oh,
maybe they should contact you, too."

And she said- I did … "Great. I
would love to talk." Oh, fantastic.

Heck yeah.

So you should reach out to Jada.

Um- Okay, we'll do that … and I, she's
the one that would have more, like, TV

intel 'cause she's been in- Yeah … that
world a long time and, um, was very

smart about thinking in those terms.

But- We will definitely do that.

But also, really appreciate your take
on kind of, like, the real world vers-

and the recapping, and also, like, I, I
really commend for you in terms of how

you handled, I, I just came out of subbing
for, as a teacher in the classroom.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, like I, I, I know what
it's like to just be thrown into a

situation that you're not necessarily
prepared to cover, and you really

handled one of those really, really well
with your recap of, of this particular

episode, especially having not covered
the season up until this point.

So, um, I really enjoyed talking with
you to get your perspective on not only

the recapper's world, but also what it
was like to be living kind of the, a

similar type of situation at the same
time while you were doing the recap.

So thank you so much.

Thank you so much to you guys.

I feel, you know, grateful that this,
you know, show that I watched and

recapped briefly over a decade ago
has connected me with both of you- Aw

and your interesting work.

Pleasure to be on talking to you.

Hey.

Yeah, it was great.

And I will, excited to see
the rest of your season.

Yeah, it was great.

Um, Carolyn, do you want to just tell
everyone where they can find you,

where they can find m- all, all of your
work, which, where they can find you

now, if you're on s- any social media?

Gi- give it all.

Sure.

Um, well please, uh, you can check
out my book, The Hot One, available

in paperback, and then my second
book is Blood on Their Hands.

Both of those you can get at your
favorite book seller, and please shoot

me a note when you have anything.

If you read the book and want to
tell me what you think, you can

find me at carolynmurnick.com.

Awesome.

Perfect.

Thanks so much.

And we're back And we're back.

Um, so yeah, as, as you guys could hear
in that, in that interview, it's all,

it's… It, it was a lot of, like, real
world comparison of, like, what does,

what is that moment like in real life?

What is, what does… How does
it make us feel as a, as an

audience watching, and how does
it relate to us in our real lives?

So I thought it was a very
interesting conversation.

Yes.

Yeah, and we're so grateful that
Jason, again, like I said, pounding

the pavement all the time trying to
get opportunities for this podcast.

So make sure, uh, you let Jason
know how awesome he is by liking-

Oh, my gosh … commenting,
subscribing, doing all of that stuff.

It would be great.

You can also do that to make sure
that Marissa knows how great she

is by literally being our- I'm
not look- … technical producer.

But I mean, I just would not, we would
not have had this, this interview or

this opportunity if you didn't take the
opport- take the initiative to do that.

Well- So- We wouldn't have a literal-

you're welcome … we wouldn't
have a literal podcast if you did

not do all the literal podcast
things that I know nothing about.

Thank you.

Well, but, and we also wouldn't
have this podcast if it wasn't

for the listeners who wrote in and
kind of told us about some stuff.

So- Yeah … um, I do wanna talk
about something that Bex, who we've

mentioned before, supported us on
Buy Me a Coffee, thank you so much,

but also shared their recollection.

L- like, what they wrote at the time.

This was the era of blogging.

Like- That's right … people
were talking about their, their

things on their own blogs.

And while C- while Bex has a coffee blog,
she, uh, was so moved by this moment,

she broke from her traditional content to
write about the death of Will Gardner and

how it impacted her in the moment, and
shared that article from 2014 with us.

And one of the things that I wanted
to… She wrote, we're gonna link

to the article below, but one of the
things I wanted to highlight with

you, Jason, is the fact that she talks
about the missed calls and voicemails.

And the, the Kings kind of talk
about it in their letter too, of,

like, bad timing, just in general.

But there are so many missed calls and
so many voicemails within the story of

these two characters that I thought it
was really fitting that there was a missed

call and a voicemail at the end of their
relationship that was forced upon them.

Yeah.

This is so funny.

If Will and Alicia's, uh,
relationship is about two things,

it's elevators and missed calls.

Yes.

Um- Very much … you know?

And we, we have this missed voicemail
who… A- and I think it's, it's

interesting to, that we have all
this knowledge about the past of

The Good Wife where it's like, it
even reads into Eli's deliverance of

the, of the, of the news to Alicia.

Of like- Yep … Eli has a lot more
information about Alicia's relationship

with Will than even Alicia does.

And he still hasn't helped, right?

Like, he has not said- Mm-hmm … anything
to Alicia about this missed voicemail

or having this voicemail, and the
fact that he deleted this voicemail.

Yeah.

Is, is, and I don't remember, I honestly
don't, I do, I do wonder if that's going

to be, like, something that comes up
where- I don't know how it would, but

it seems like these charac- sometimes
these characters in this show just blurt

out things at any given moment of like-
Well, a funeral is an emotional moment.

Sure.

You never know.

So yeah, I just… It, it's
what, it's what Alicia and

Will's relationship is about.

And f- so for the missed voicemails
to be, you know, the first one was a

declaration of love from Will to Alicia,
which could have changed everything.

Would've changed- Well, yeah.

But it was two, right?

Like, in that first moment- Mm-hmm

there were two different messages.

There was a declaration of love,
"Let's go, let's do it," and then

there was a, "No, you're right,
we shouldn't do it" voice message.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, I mean, it wasn't…
'cause I'm trying to remember.

The first one was like, well,
both of them were deleted, but

Will told her about the one.

What?

Of like, "I said some crazy things
but, you know, I said nevermind.

It wasn't important." I thought it- But
the second one was the really the one

that was like, "No, I freaking love you.

Call me back.

Like, we, we, we can do this.

I don't care about anything else.

I don't care about your damn
kids, I don't care about nothing.

We- I'm in love with you, let's do this
damn thing," which was the one that was

the important one, which he decided to
pull back from her and not tell her about.

Because I think, I'm just trying to
remember, I think at that, at that point

it was, like, clear that Alicia was
going back with, with Peter, and Will

didn't wanna stir up any more stuff.

Well, because Peter
was also, like… Yeah.

Yeah.

A- and I just remember that
that last one was the one that

was deleted, not the first one.

Mm. Okay.

I, because I think Will, uh, the,
her phone was intercepted by Eli

as she was going up on stage while
Peter, I think, was announcing

he was gonna run for governor.

Yeah.

And at that moment, uh, he hears,
or at some speech, I don't know if

it was the governor announcement or
not, but then he sees the voicemail.

And he's like, so he knows.

He's seen, he knows what's going on
between, between Alicia and Will.

So he listens to the voicemail which, at
this point, I was like, "Uh, why don't

you have a key code on your voicemail?"

But whatever.

Uh, so he listens to the voicemail
and he deletes the one that is the

declaration of love, and leaves the
one that's kind of like- Ah, yes.

Yeah … "I don't think we should
do this. You're right." Yeah.

You know?

Yes.

Because at this point, they, they've had
this conversation that, Will and Alicia

had the conversation of- this is it.

Like, we're at this point.

It's now or never.

What do you wanna do?

And Alicia has said like, "Nah, I don't
think we should." And Will is, like,

trying to gear himself up to do it, and
he's watching her on the screen while

he gives this voicemail message to her.

Um, and Eli is the one that takes away
the, the loved one, and then walks with

this knowledge through the rest of…

Uh, I mean, I don't know what, like you s-
I don't remember if and/or when it comes

out, but to this point in our watching,
he has not said anything to anybody.

But it has impacted the way that
Eli navigates a relationship with

Alicia and Peter at the same time.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So g- as, as Becks said, as, as
we've said, the voicemails are a big

part of their relationship- Mm-hmm

and came into play in the, at a,
at, at a pivotal point, and at the

very end of their relationship.

I mean, as we, as we talked about
in 16, is a, is on Alicia's mind

the whole time, and is the crux of
her story for that whole episode.

The whole time.

Uh- The whole time … anything
else from Becks' cleverly titled

article of Last Will and Testament?

Um, j- sh- in her message to us she,
she had mentioned that, that how she f-

stumbled upon the information by accident.

Uh, you know, Becks had told us that,
you know, she, uh, she was watching

religiously every week, The Good Wife.

It was one of the only ones she
would watch religiously, so she would

stay off of Twitter at the time- Mm

to, like, avoid being spoiled.

'Cause that was a day when people
talked about- Yeah … episodes

of TV on Twitter, uh, religiously.

Was s- she stayed off Twitter till she
could watch, but she went on Facebook

shortly after the episode, and got spoiled
by the Kings themselves, who had this, I

think it was probably s- it was probably
this Good Wi- Goodbye Will post of like…

And she, she saw Goodbye Will, and
like ran off of the post because

she didn't wanna get too spoiled.

So she didn't know what the goodbye was.

She thought maybe he was moving,
maybe he was leaving the law firm.

And then come to find
out, no, he was dead.

Uh, you know, just had no idea it
was gonna be that big of a thing.

Uh, so I thought that, I thought that
was very funny and very, very cool.

As Marissa said, sh- we're
gonna link the article.

It's a very well-written,
very thought out article.

Yeah.

If you have time to watch it.

Time to watch it?

Time to read it, uh, you should, 'cause
it was, it was a very interesting

article about the death of Will.

Yes.

And all that stuff.

Um, yeah.

Uh, I want to like talk a little bit
about the YouTube of it all as well.

We had some YouTube comments
that were- Oh, nice … that

were a little interesting.

Uh, let me pull it up real quick.

There was, let's see.

There was somebody that, like we did,
questioned Kalinda's, uh, kl- questioned

Alicia's questioning of wh- Kalinda's gay?

Or Kalinda's not gay?

Mm-hmm.

I thought she was gay.

And they had said, uh, let me pull it up.

Um- Yeah, how did Alicia think Kalinda is
gay when she literally slept with Peter?

Very true.

Very true.

Uh, someone does, uh, answer that.

It says, "Because she only sleeps
with people to get information, and

then she dumps them on their ass.

Kalinda's a one-dimensional, hypocritical
user." I was like, that's coming-

That's a read … that's a read.

I don't necessarily agree with that.

But I, I do agree with like, uh,
why would Alicia think that, that

Kalinda has no interest in guys?

Like, she literally
slept with your husband.

Yeah.

It was weird.

And I mean, I completely forgot
that too, so way to call me out too.

Yeah.

'Cause I was… That's like the
whole premise of their beef,

but like- Yeah, come on, Alicia.

Come on.

Uh, we also heard from Reversible
Octopus, uh, which you've heard

from a few different times.

Uh, Jason with the deep cut early on.

My goodness, good sir. I don't
know what that was about.

I don't know what the deep cut was.

I responded to them, I was like,
"Can you remind me what the deep cut

was?" Reversible Octopus, so when you
hear this, like hit me up again and

tell me what, what my deep cut was.

I wanna know if I was
like, if it was profound.

I don't remember it at all.

Um, Marissa is so real for the
transferring DNA with Josh.

So real.

So Reversible- Thank you … Reversible
Octopus is with you on that one.

Uh, and they also say, "I've watched
The Good Wife over and over so many

times, and always skip this episode.
It's both frustrating as hell with the

case, and also sad as hell with Will
dying." Uh- Yeah … for sure, for sure.

Um, another user talks about how much
they, they hated Will on their first

watch, and was glad that he left the show.

No offense though- Oh, interesting
… is how they sign off that.

Um, I think I- I mean,
I think we could see it.

Like, he is kind of a
self-centered person.

I guess.

So- I feel like he has so many other
good qualities- Oh … and good redeeming

moments that they should kinda drown out
the, the, the, the bad that we've seen.

But I mean, listen, to
each their own, right?

Like, that's- I feel like someone could
be like, "I have an altar to Peter Florick

in my house," and I'm just sitting there
going, "I hate this man." Listen, you

try and say that's what I do sometimes.

Like, no.

Sometimes.

Sometimes I wonder.

No.

I wonder if some of those trinkets
behind you have some sort of-

Something or other No way, man.

Um, yes.

Uh, and then we got some, also some Reddit
threads that didn't go into too much

detail, just basically about, you know, "I
woke my husband up to, like, to tell him

about this. Like, I, this crazy death at
the time." Uh, so we, we appreciate all

the feedback and all the- Oh, oh, yeah.

And we have- … experiences, memories.

We do have, we do have another one.

Yeah Uh, we've talked about, uh,
we've talked a couple times about,

uh, the old network we used to
podcast for, Post Show Recaps.

Uh, and Post Show Recaps had a
Discord that, uh, that you could

go into and, and talk about shows
and what you're thinking of.

We had, we have a, a, the Good
Pod tab over there, um, for

people to kinda hit us up.

And someone that co- that, uh, that,
uh, comments a lot over there is Tova.

Tova.

Tova, uh, said, "When I think
of The Good Wife, this is the

episode that comes to mind first.

This was about the time that casting news
was starting to become rampant online,

totally removing shock from TV characters'
death, uh, or other departures from shows.

I still don't know how the Kings pulled
this one off, but when I think of TV

character deaths, Will Gardner ranks
as the most shocking I can remember.

I viscerally remember the gasp I let
out when Kalinda pulled back that sheet.

I don't know that we will ever get
that again." Um, yeah, I, for sure.

I, I 100%.

And the, and the way that they… We
talked about it in episode 15, the way

that they kind of tried to, like- Fake us
out in a way of, like, Kalinda and Diane

are outside this, this room- Yeah … as
someone's getting, getting worked on.

It's like, "Oh, you're gonna
be okay, buddy." It's like,

phew, that was close, man.

I mean, but they, they wouldn't, they
never would've killed Will Gardner, right?

And then for Kalinda to just go
into that s- that, that room with

this, this dead body just by itself.

And one shoe, and one shoe.

And then the one shoe.

And then pulling that sheet back
to reveal that Will Gardner has

been dead for a, a minute now.

Just like oh my Go- like, I can,
uh, I can, like I re- vi- I remember

watching it in the real time
and being like, "What the hell?"

Like, I probably cursed
out loud or something.

But like, just the
shock of that was crazy.

Well, and the fact that this is
a show that, like, continues for,

like, two and a half seasons.

So there's still more story to tell.

Like, I, I think the Kings in, in
their letter, you know, talk about

this being a hub for the characters.

It's also a hub for us as an audience.

Like, it's a touch point, and
it's something I think we lose.

You know, Tova places this very well
in terms of, you know, this is when

we were hearing about departures
from shows and stuff like that.

But this is also a shocking TV moment
that we all experienced at the same time.

This was not happening
on a streaming show.

Mm. This was on a show… Like, if
you were not watching at the time it

happened, you were watching it 'cause
you taped it on your VCR or DVR.

I guess we had those at this time.

As, as- So, so does Marisa, you
place this show in like the 1990s.

Yeah.

Some- I'm really bad with…

The time between like 2000
and 2015 is really, like, all

collapsed into one thing for me.

But, um, but you know, as David Letterman
once said, I DVR'd it and I taped it in.

Or I, I DVR'd it and then I, I taped it.

Um, but anyway, like- This was
a communal moment for people.

You didn't have a lot of TV choices.

You didn't…

And if you're re-watching the show and
had not, or if you're watching the show

for the first time, if you're doing
a first watch and, and listening with

us, I hope we provided you with some of
that communal support that would've come

with experiencing that all together.

Because I mean, today we sort of have
that with stre- but it's like throughout

a couple weeks, and you don't really know.

But this was something, like I'm sure
people were at the water cooler the

next day going like, "Oh my God, did
you see what happened on The Good Wife?

Talk about it.

Can you believe that
happened with Josh Charles?

Like, what's going on?

Blah, blah, blah.

Did you see the kink letter?" So
it was definitely like something,

a cultural moment that I don't
think, to Tova's point, I don't

know if we will ever get that- Yeah

again.

And we talked about in our
conversation with Carolyn a little

bit, like some of the other TV
deaths that are like akin to this.

And we talked about at the time like,
but this, but this is a procedural show.

Like you did not, you did not come to
this show thinking about character deaths.

You know, with other prestige
shows like a Game of Thrones,

like a Walking Dead, everyone's
kinda up for grabs on that show.

Anyone could die at any given moment.

But this is like, no one
dies on The Good Wife.

Like th- that's not the
type of show this is.

And then for it to like turn to,
into that like, to for one episode,

turn to that show where we got
people dying, it's like whoa.

Like that, that even, you
know, contributes to the

off the wall nature of it.

And it makes it, like we were talking
about some of the, the, the deaths right?

Of, of TV deaths that
were almost as shocking.

Um, you know, Dexter comes to
mind if you know about Dexter.

I think that's like was off the
wall, out of nowhere in a way.

I, I then started to think about, um,
there was this sitcom starring Brooke

Shields back in the day, Suddenly Susan.

Suddenly Susan, yeah.

Yeah.

And unfortunately one of the
actors on the show, um, died.

I do believe it was, uh, self-inflicted,
and they had to write it into the show.

Mm-hmm.

And it was this character that
was like always on rollerblades or

something if I remember correctly.

And they, it did, they just spent
the whole episode talking about like

they didn't know where their friend
was, but they, they, they, they, you

know, basically dedicated the episode
to that, to that person and talked

about how great a person they were.

And like it just makes you think
of those type of like- deaths.

Uh, all, unfortunately that was like
real world, you know, um, inspired.

Um, but this was, it's kinda like that.

It's like we saw Will in some great
moments before he left, and I think

it was, it was a good sendoff.

Um, could it have been, uh, uh, but
the problem with this one is they

couldn't really, uh, you know, show
us that this is about to happen.

But I think with the moments
we got were great to give us

a sendoff to Will Gardner.

Yeah, I think like in episode
15 I was like, "This wasn't

enough for Will." Mm-hmm.

Like I needed, I needed more for Will.

But I think I'm satisfied now with the
impact, seeing the impact- Yeah … of

the characters afterwards because I
think what I, I really You know, this

isn't like a real person's funeral.

But like I, I will say like what
I, what I really loved about Will

was when he was put in situations
where he was uncomfortable.

Like when he was in military court
or when he was like, uh, with the In

My Opinion judge or things like that.

Like, and, and it would've been nice
to see him in… Like if we, I had not

had s- Episode 16, I would've wanted
his last episode to be something

like that where he had to like kind
of like overcome out of something.

It, it ki- it kinda was, right?

Because he was, he was defending someone
that no one else thought was innocent.

He was the only person standing
up for Jeffrey- That's true.

That's true … and believing,
believing in Jeffrey,

believing Jeffrey was innocent.

And from what we've been shown
so far, I'm pretty sure that

Jeffrey did not kill Danny.

Um- Yes.

I think, but I think like these
things are like more quirky

that he gets caught up in.

It's like- Mm … military law,
there's a quirk, or like In My Opinion.

Like, and he's so like confident
and he's so I'm gonna go forward.

But it, these little things, these
little pebbles in his shoes that would

always kind of like- Take him out

have to cause him to like
readdress in some way.

Yeah.

And so like a nod to that would've
been cool, but I, I don't think

it was needed given Episode 16.

I think Episode 16 really does show the
impact of, of Will Gardner and honors the

impact that he had on these characters,
and I think will continue to go forward.

Um, I just r- on, on the rewatch of
15, I was just like, "But no." Yeah.

"It can't be it." Like,
"No." Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, and I, I definitely agree that
16 gave you the kind of the, uh, the,

the honoring of who Will Gardner was.

Yeah.

Speaking of which, is there anything you
would say at Will Gardner's funeral if

you were called upon to eulogize this man?

Lay it on us, Jason.

What would you say?

I mean, yeah, I think Will Gardner was
someone that was, uh, you know, if you

were a friend or family of Will Gardner,
he would defend you passionately,

he would defend you fiercely.

And, you know, Will was never someone
without, without a plan, without a trick,

without a, without an ace up his sleeve.

He was that guy.

Um, but, you know, Will Gardner was
also passionate if you decided that,

you know, you were gonna turn on him,
and I think that's another part of

Will Gardner that we need to address.

Just ask, uh, Alicia's former desk, right?

Don't, don't get in Will Gardner's way.

But that's how passionate he was
in both, uh, you know, fighting

for and fighting against people.

That was all part of who Will Gardner
was as a person, and also someone

who- More often than not would
do, uh, would do the right thing.

Um, you know, please don't th-
don't talk about their $45,000,

um- … that whole thing.

But- He returned it.

He returned it … he returned it.

He returned it after he was done using it.

Um- Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm … but he, he
definitely, he returned it.

And, you know, even in Will's
last moments, he was someone

that was defending people.

He tried to stop the carnage of the
man that ended up taking his life.

So I think to the very end, Will
Gardner was someone that would

do his all to defend people, um,
either in the, whether it is in the

courtroom or in the courtroom of life.

So well said.

I'm gonna just need a moment.

Ugh.

Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, the only
thing I would add to that is my sweet,

competitive, loyal, romantic man- Romantic
man … I mean, like, if he wanted to be,

he would, he, I think we would see that.

If he, like, if he was given a chance,
like, to really do things with Alicia, I

think he would, he would, he would do it.

Yes.

I mean, I'm trying to, I'm trying to-
But not like, he's not like, he's not

like, he's romantic in his own way.

Like, it's- He's got
that, he's got a charm.

He got swagger.

Yes.

Yeah.

You know?

He's got, yeah, he's got game in more wa-
For sure … in, in more ways than one.

Um, also- He's Mr., he's
Mr. Take Your- He's Mr.

Take Your Girl.

Just ask Peter Fork.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But also, um- You were loved
in your misguided skiing

and- … other ways as well.

You're just a very, like, y- Will
Gardner, you're a very complicated

character, a very rootable character
at the same time, and that's,

that's very difficult to pull off.

And so thank you for gracing us
with your screen, on our screens

and in our hearts, and we go on.

The car is moving, as David
Lee says, so we must persist.

Rest in peace, Will
Gardner, forever and ever.

Amen.

Amen.

Yeah.

All right.

Well- That was it.

All right.

Well All right.

Well, we'll- All right … no longer
ever talk about Will Gardner ever again.

Yeah, that was it.

That was it.

That's- I mean- It's done.

It's over.

Uh, we- I just want to say, I think, um,
fam, let us know if, if you enjoy this

bonus coverage and would like for us to
continue talking about Josh Charles, I

would just like you to know that Jason
has never watched Good Will Hunting.

And so if you would like to have
some coverage of that show and for

us to continue talking about Josh
Charles, please do let us know,

'cause I will make that happen.

Oh, okay.

Well, we'll see.

I mean, listen, you might, you might
have to, you might have … Uh,

I'm not doing it for free, y'all.

I'm just gonna let y'all- I'm
gonna let y'all know that.

I, my, my time is, is worth something,
so it ain't gonna be for free.

It's true.

It's true.

But I'm just saying there's
an opportunity there.

If, if you sh- if you show us that
you, you'd like it, we'll, we'll

figure out a way to make it happen.

Oh, captain, my captain, um- You
have no idea what that means.

Keep that out of your mouth.

You have no idea.

I've watched it.

I watched that moment, uh, where I-
You have no i- but you don't know.

It means nothing without the buildup.

It means nothing.

Where I saw a, I saw a young
Josh Charles that kinda looked

like, uh, uh, what's his name?

Krasinski?

Jim from The Office?

Yeah.

So he kinda looked like that
guy when he was younger.

Yeah.

Uh, but anyway, um, listen, I, I
could be talked into things, but

it's not gonna be for free, people.

It's not gonna be for free.

Um, anyway, Marissa- Yes … you
wanna tell the folks where they

can find you, what you're up to?

You can always find me
at itsmemarissag.com.

You guys know it there.

Uh, check it out.

That's what I got.

There you go.

You can always find me over on, uh,
Patreon at the Perfect Match, at the,

uh, Perfect Match podcast, where we talk
about Married at First Sight, me and H.

Welch.

We're doing season 12 right now, one
of the great seasons of that show.

We're re-watching it,
so come check it out.

It's gonna be a lot of fun.

Uh, until, till you hear from
us next, in the, truly in the

world without a Will Gardner.

Who am I?

Where do I find my feet?

How do I, how do I, how
do we do this, Jason?

But we're gonna do it together.

Sleep well, our sweet prince.

And for those of you out there that
are listening and watching, stay good.